Coatham Protest

Earlier in the summer, the council held a 'consultation' exercise called "Love it Hate it". Basically, it was a marquee kind of tent filled with pictures of exotic places and stunning landmarks and vistas and alongside them, pictures of Redcar and Cleveland. It was manned by officers of the council. I struggled to understand what they were trying to say by showing pictures of say Redcar beach, alongside pictures of sun kissed beaches in places like the bahamas? Were the council trying to imply that our beach was like a beach abroad in one of these exotic places, or that it could be? Were they trying to compare what we have here with as I say, stunning landmarks and vistas and buildings around the world? When both Craig Hornby and I asked Cassandra Fergusson what it was all about on camera, she didnt answer adequately any of our questions and tried to refute all the things that we were saying, even though all of the things that we were saying are backed up with documented proof.

I came to the conclusion that it was just another spin exercise, another attempt to paint a huge gloss veneer on a borough that is in a lot of financial trouble.

Today to my surprise, in Saltburn, I came across a scaled down version of the Summers "Love it Hate it" exhibition in the side of a council vehicle, in a car park near the railway. There were three, I presume, officers of the council in attendance. I announced who I was and asked them if they could tell me why the council aren't telling the public that the youth facility that the council are applying for funding for, the one that was featured in the Gazette on Tuesday this week as being built on Majuba road, is actually going to be built on the site of the old baths, a site already allocated to a bowling alley which is part of the Coatham Enclosure scheme, a bowling alley that the council have already told the public and the court, that they have funding for.

I was told by the three officers? That they could not answer my questions and that they were only there to answer people regarding what they loved and hated about the borough. They told me that for any other information, I had to contact the council? But arent they working for the council I thought? No matter, I followed their instruction and filled in a comment card saying I hated the councils lack of transparency and loved the people of this area.

Outside in the carpark, Craig Hornby was talking to an elderly lady and gentleman. I stopped and told them about the council intending to site this youth facility on the site of a facility that is supposed to be part of the Coatham scheme and a facility that they are supposed to already have funding for, I told them about a whole host of things that this council have and are, getting away with. But can you believe that when I got to the part where I started to outline what the ex-chief executive did and was allowed to get away with, one of the officers who were now gathered around us, butted in and said "yeah, but hes gone now!"

I couldn't believe it. He was more or less saying that Colin Moores among others, abuses, were in the past and it didnt matter anymore because these people were now gone. I told him at that point that the council let him go without being investigated and on a massive pay off. But what was even more outrageous, was that after the elderly couple had gone, the officer who had butted in, told us that whilst he thought we were entitled to behave strongly about things like we do, at the end of the day and I quote "SHIT HAPPENS!

He told us that he had only been working for the council for eleven months and that before he came to RCBC, he worked for years serving the mayor of Middlesbrough, Ray Mallon and that he had seen and I quote "what went on" and that at the end of the day shit happens. Craig said so what you are saying is that we are okay to belive in what were doing but at the end of the day it doesnt matter, we might aswell just accept whats going on , because even though its rotten theres nothing we can do, that we should just move on and forget about whats gone on, because shit happens.

We both laughed in disbelief. This is the true face of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Councils consultation and their attitude to the truth and to democracy and to the abuses that have taken place already. The fact that he said this, shows just how much contempt these people have for the public and how they dont care about the things that certain individuals within our council have been allowed to get away with.

They are an absolute disgrace.

Two days ago I told you about the councils intention to provide a much needed youth facility in Coatham. Below, is a link to their press release issued today.

In response to this latest release about the new youth facility on Majuba Rd, I think that this sounds great. But I'd like to know why they aren't telling people that the council themselves are wanting to develop this facility on a site that has already been allocated to a supposed leisure facility that has always been an intrinsic part of the Coatham Enclosure scheme? Why haven't they told people this?

Infact, why haven't they informed people that they want to build it on the site of the old baths which is referred to on the Persimmon plan as the D2 leisure site. This D2 leisure site was going to accomodate the bowling alley. It is obvious now that what we have been saying all along is correct, there was never going to be any bowling alley or any D2 leisure, because the council now want to build this youth facility in its place on that site.

In 2006 Colin Moore and Vera Moody both stated in the press that all of the funding for the leisure in Coatham was in place, they specifically mentioned the bowling alley. If all of the funding for the Coatham scheme was and in is in place, why are the council now applying for funding to provide a leisure facility which isn't part of the Persimmon scheme, but which is going to occupy a site that has always been a part of the Persimmon scheme and home to a facility ( A bowling Alley) that the council have already stated in the press and in court, they have funding for?

Wouldn't you have more respect for these people if they didn't tell so many lies?

http://www.redcar-cleveland.gov.uk/PressRel.nsf/PublishedM/CBC1472E739C4228802574F00051904C?OpenDocument
hasEML = false;

When the MP and Solicitor General of this country Vera Baird, has called the Coatham scheme a disaster on radio, when the leader of the council George Dunning, has called the planning process for the scheme tainted in the local paper, when there is no funding for any leisure and all of the leisure facilities that were in the scheme originally have all been dropped apart from the leisure centre and pool which the council is hoping to be built by them borrowing millions of pounds and raising peoples council tax (something that the council and the MP always said that they could never do), when this only last remaining leisure facility in this disastrous, tainted scheme has nothing to do with the building of Persimmons houses and when even those houses themselves are not going to happen, not just because recession ravaged Persimmon are sinking faster than the Titanic, but because of the whole area in Coatham being so expensive to develop it would make the whole scheme unviable in any economic climate, why is this council still desperate to tie us to Persimmon Homes PLC and this whole mess?

This council over a period of four and a half years since our campaign began, have made a whole host of inexplicable decisions that have in every case, tied us more and more to Persimmon.

They have committed public money to being spent paying for Persimmons legal fees and consultancy fees when we had a £12,000,000 hole in our councils budget and Persimmon were the richest builder in the country?

They have never asked Persimmon to sign a 106 agreement so tying Persimmon to providing any leisure facilities as part of this scheme, when it was advertised in 2002 as a leisure scheme?

They have changed the Environment Agencies planning condition regarding the building of a £14,000,000 sea defence to benefit Persimmon when they hadn't had the consent or authority to do so?

They have given the scheme full, cross party backing last June when it had already been described by the MP and Leader of the council as a disaster and tainted?

They signed the development agreement for this scheme, so tying us to Persimmon, two days before the local elections last year and before any possible change of administration who would drop this scheme. They signed this agreement not only two days before the local elections, but weeks before G.O.N.E had even made any decision as to whether or not they were going to call it in? No wonder this council are now using LEGI money to fund local clairvoyants!

And now officers of this council have once again, under delegated authority once again, extended Persimmon homes planning permission without bringing it before the councils planning committee, when the council are starting to develop parts of the site themselves without any involvement from Persimmon and when the only leisure facility from the original scheme that the council want to provide, they are hoping to provide through borrowing millions?

Why is this council hell bent on tying us to a developer and their housing scheme, when that builder and that housing scheme isn't benefitting this town in any way at all and when they aren't providing one single leisure facility?

Why? why? why? Could the answer to these questions lie in the fact that this council and Persimmon were involved in Coatham a year before it was even advertised as a leisure development in 2002? It certainly looks as if the councils and Persimmons' decision to press ahead no matter what, was made long before the scheme was even advertised. All we need to know now is why?

Only a thorough independent investigation will provide us with the answers.

When the MP and Solicitor General of this country Vera Baird, has called the Coatham scheme a disaster on radio, when the leader of the council George Dunning, has called the planning process for the scheme tainted in the local paper, when there is no funding for any leisure and all of the leisure facilities that were in the scheme originally have all been dropped apart from the leisure centre and pool which the council is hoping to be built by them borrowing millions of pounds and raising peoples council tax (something that the council and the MP always said that they could never do), when this only last remaining leisure facility in this disastrous, tainted scheme has nothing to do with the building of Persimmons houses and when even those houses themselves are not going to happen, not just because recession ravaged Persimmon are sinking faster than the Titanic, but because of the whole area in Coatham being so expensive to develop it would make the whole scheme unviable in any economic climate, why is this council still desperate to tie us to Persimmon Homes PLC and this whole mess?

This council over a period of four and a half years since our campaign began, have made a whole host of inexplicable decisions that have in every case, tied us more and more to Persimmon.

They have committed public money to being spent paying for Persimmons legal fees and consultancy fees when we had a £12,000,000 hole in our councils budget and Persimmon were the richest builder in the country?

They have never asked Persimmon to sign a 106 agreement so tying Persimmon to providing any leisure facilities as part of this scheme, when it was advertised in 2002 as a leisure scheme?

They have changed the Environment Agencies planning condition regarding the building of a £14,000,000 sea defence to benefit Persimmon when they hadn't had the consent or authority to do so?

They have given the scheme full, cross party backing last June when it had already been described by the MP and Leader of the council as a disaster and tainted?

They signed the development agreement for this scheme, so tying us to Persimmon, two days before the local elections last year and before any possible change of administration who would drop this scheme. They signed this agreement not only two days before the local elections, but weeks before G.O.N.E had even made any decision as to whether or not they were going to call it in? No wonder this council are now using LEGI money to fund local clairvoyants!

And now officers of this council have once again, under delegated authority once again, extended Persimmon homes planning permission without bringing it before the councils planning committee, when the council are starting to develop parts of the site themselves without any involvement from Persimmon and when the only leisure facility from the original scheme that the council want to provide, they are hoping to provide through borrowing millions?

Why is this council hell bent on tying us to a developer and their housing scheme, when that builder and that housing scheme isn't benefitting this town in any way at all and when they aren't providing one single leisure facility?

Why? why? why? Could the answer to these questions lie in the fact that this council and Persimmon were involved in Coatham a year before it was even advertised as a leisure development in 2002? It certainly looks as if the councils and Persimmons' decision to press ahead no matter what, was made long before the scheme was even advertised. All we need to know now is why?

Only a thorough independent investigation will provide us with the answers.

After revealing that the council are spending £700,000 on the boating lake project, when it was only supposed to be spending £60,000, after revealing that Persimmon aren't contributing to the £700,000 in any way when they were going to be contributing to the £60,000, after revealing that the council have already applied for funding to develop themselves, a leisure facility on a prime area of the Coatham site which isn't part of the Coatham scheme as this site has always been designated for something else and as it has always been an intrinsic part of the Coatham scheme and after this news provided in the link below, it is time that this council came clean and stated exactly what is going to happen in Coatham? It is obvious to most that the PersimmonCoatham Enclosure scheme is doomed. This link shows just that...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=456166&in_page_id=3&position=moretopstories

Yet what isn't obvious to most or widely known, is that even though Persimmon Homes are in such a dire mess and are sinking quicker than the Titanic, Officers of this council extended the planning permission for the Coatham plan for an unspecified length of time, without bringing it before the councils planning committee!

Why on earth would officers of the council do that, when A. The building of the only leisure facility left in the scheme, isn't dependant on the building of the houses because the council want to borrow money to provide it at a cost to the public?

B. Persimmon are looking in a very bad way and wont be building anything anywhere for an awfully long time?

The fact that officers are desperately trying to keep us tied to a scheme and a builder that is dead in the water, is just madness and the cause for great concern.

There has to be a reason why they should try to do this and it should be investigated now, because these actions are not in the best interests of the public of Redcar at all. As weren't the council ignoring all of the warning signs regarding the icelandic bank and in turn, losing millions of pounds of our money in this offshore bank.

In 2006 at the councils Grand scrutiny meeting, the councils ex-chief executive Colin Moore, a man who was found by two employment tribunals to have deliberately not told the truth, changed his evidence overnight and been found guilty of sharp practise that same year, made a statement to the Grand scrutiny meeting about The Coatham Enclosure scheme which went and I quote,

"The cost of the two swimming pools, bowling alley, leisure centre including five a side pitches and dance floor is £11.5 million. The Council has £14million secure through the capital receipt from Persimmon, Sport England Grant and prudential borrowing. This is £2.5 million in excess of the leisure provision requirements".

There are a few things which are significant about this statement. Firstly it shows that the only money that the council could speak confidently about regarding funding for the leisure, was the money from the sale of the land and millions and millions of pounds of money that was being borrowed, something that the council and the MP said could never be an option as this would raise peoples council tax.

But after the revelations of the past few days, what is also significant is that in the list of things that Colin Moore states are going to be provided ( 99% of which are all under the one roof of the leisure centre which is being paid for through all of the borrowing he mentions) he mentions a bowling alley. This bowling alley, as Council Officer Alan Logan told the court at the footpath hearing last March, would be sited on the site of the old swimming baths, the site on the Persimmon plan marked D2 leisure.

As has now been revealed, the council want to develop this D2 site themselves as leisure facility. Nowhere in the Persimmon plan does it mention this leisure facility, let alone it being on this prime site?

Persimmon were due to issue this statement around about this time. Then they put back the release date for this statement to mid November. Then suddenly today, they decided to release it today again? Read it and see what position, despite what they have already said to a high court judge and to a high court appeal judge, they are really in.

http://corporate.persimmonhomes.com/ click link Regulatory News Highlights27/10/2008REG-Persimmon Plc Interim Management Statement27 October 2008

INTERIM MANAGEMENT STATEMENT

27 October 2008

Persimmon plc today releases its third quarter Interim Management Statement.
This report has been brought forward from the previously announced date of 18
November 2008 in view of the impact that the recent significant events in
financial markets have had on the UK housing market, in particular the further
pressure being experienced on selling prices and, consequentially, residential
land values.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20081027/tuk-uk-britain-hometrack-fa6b408.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7692734.stm

I'm starting to think, more and more, that what has been said about Persimmon pulling out of Coatham, is quite possible.

A month or so ago, unconfirmed reports were given to me from a source close to the council, that stated that Persimmon homes were about to pull out of the Coatham Enclosure scheme. When you receive unconfirmed reports like that, you have to treat their validity with caution. However, there are things unfolding which, on the face of it, would suggest that these unconfirmed reports are possibly more than just idle banter.

Firstly the Coatham Bowl, which was due to be demolished as part of the Persimmon scheme, has had a face lift, its leaking roof repaired and are taking bookings until at least the end of 2009. Why is that if what has been stated in the latest election literature for the Kirkleatham ward is to be relied upon, namely that work is due to begin on the Persimmon scheme next Spring?

Secondly, the refurbishment of the boating lake was originally going to cost approximately £60,000 and this sum was going to be contributed to by Persimmon themselves. Now though, the figure to refurbish the boating lake has risen massively to £700,000! Not only this, the decision to spend PUBLIC MONEY was made under delegated authority by the councils officers and it is not being suplemented in any way, by Persimmon. Why is that and why has the cost risen so steeply?

Thirdly, we have had for a while now, the councils agenda for their meeting on the 28th of this month. It shows that the council themselves, have already applied for funding to build a leisure facility of some sort themselves, on the site of the old swimming baths. In the document it states and I quote
" This project will provide state of the art facilities and equipment for arts and media, which will be used to deliver High quality, innovative programs delivered by skilled professionals and accredited through the Arts councils Arts award scheme. This project will provide young people with a safe place to meet, opportunities to get involved in positive activities and access to the help and support they need..."
In the Persimmon Coatham Enclosure scheme, this site has always been known as the D2 leisure site. It has, over the years changed from being designated for a casino, to a bingo hall to a bowling alley. What is significant about this, is that the council have been telling people for years, that all of the funding was in place for all of the leisure facilities in the Coatham Scheme. But yet here they are now, applying for funding for a leisure facility under delegated authority once again, that they want to build themselves? If all of the funding is in place and has been since at least 2006 when Colin Moore and Vera Moody made a public statement to say so, why are the council applying for funding, to fund a leisure facility of their own, on that site?
More than this, this D2 site has always been an intrinsic part of the Persimmon scheme and yet now it appears as if the council are trying to develop it themselves. Why is that?

It would appear, that more and more the council are attempting to take control of the enclosure and develop it themselves and it would appear that less and less, Persimmon are being involved. I will leave you to make of that what you will.

But when the country is now officially in recession, the housing market stagnant and when Persimmons own shares have fallen so drastically to just £4.00 in September to just around £2.00 this month, bearing in mind the massive obstacles that have to be overcome just to make this site safe to live in, would it really be a surprise if what the unconfirmed reports that I received in September, were actually true?

All I would like to know now is why, when the council have another plan on the table for a full leisure scheme, submitted by Redcarpet Developments, if Persimmon are no more,are they seeming to try and do things themselves?

In a posting I made earlier today, I asked was it just a coincidence that our finance officer retired just before the shit hit the fan on so many levels? Then I saw this article in the Daily Mail and I knew that not just the finance officer leaving but the Chief Executive leaving several months before him, was no coincidence at all.

Read the article and look at this quote that I have taken from it, "As for the finance directors of all those local authorities which invested hundreds of millions of taxpayers' pounds in Icelandic banks, they have been criminally negligent, and I hope that police investigations will follow.
For more than a year, credit ratings agencies such as Standards & Poor's have warned that Iceland was a financial basket case". When you read this you just know that these two men leaving our council, was more of a get away than it was retiring.

Its an absolute disgrace that they should have been allowed to go when they have not only been involved in this level of criminal negligence, but involved in the supression of final financial audit reports, bullying, intimidation, sharp practise, exceeding their spending limits, and God knows what else. Every aspect of these two mens time at Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council should be investigated and without further delay.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076397/PETER-OBORNE-Should-State-free-choice-rule-lives-The-answer-define-futures.html

Following my posting yesterday, I found a link to the story about the council investing money in the collapsed Icelandic bank from the Evening Gazette, which I have now put onto this posting below.
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2008/10/10/redcar-and-cleveland-council-s-cash-shock-84229-22007489/

In the Gazette article councillor Peter Scott, cabinet member for corporate resources said, that the loss of six million pounds would not have an immediate detrimental impact the council or its services. When it has already been front page news that we have a £!2,000,000 black hole in our councils budget, does he seriously expect people to believe that the loss of a further £6,000,000 through this council depositing money in off shore bank accounts, will not harm our council or its services in any way, straight away or in the future? What council can glibly pass off throwing six million pounds of public money down the drain! The propaganda machine rolls ever on!

What makes me almost laugh out loud most, is our freedom of speech stifling, hypocritical, MP Vera Baird, sat in my friends front room two years ago and said that if we could show her any other way to fund the building of a swimming pool in Redcar, other than building the Persimmon houses and without having to borrow money because that would raise peoples council tax, then she would support it fully.
What is remarkable about that statement is that not only do this council intend to borrow £10,400,000 to provide the town with a pool and leisure because they have attracted no funding for this "disaster" of a scheme to quote our MP once again, (although with the council now being demoted to a two star authority, their ability to borrow money is greatly reduced, not to mention the looming recession) at the time that she was telling us that if we could show her any other way to fund a pool other than by building houses or borrowing, then she would support it, she must have known that this council were investing money in the icelandic bank, because it was the Government that she is a part of, who were encouraging local authorities to invest in it!

SIX MILLION POUNDS!!! £6,000,000 of pur money thrown away by these arrogant, inept, people in out town hall. Six million pounds that could have provided, way before now, a first class swimming facility in this town. No houses, no bullshit, just what people want most of all, a first class swimming facility for our children to use and learn to swim in.

Damn them all for their lies and their deceit. Damn them all for their real agenda, in the collapse of this bank, has been exposed. They aren't bothered what the people of this town want or need. If they were, they would have provided our town with a baths long before now. They have had the money to build a pool yet they have chosen to waste it and squander it on things that they want instead, like putting millions of pounds in risky offshore bank accounts. The thing that knowing that money was available for leisure, they were still telling the public that the only way we could have a baths was to have the houses?

Two days ago it was exposed that our council ignored warnings and wasted six million pounds of public money by investing in a collapsed foreign bank. The money for a pool was there.
Why have our council been telling us that we needed Persimmons houses to have a swimming pool in Redcar, when it is obvious that we dont and never have?

P.S, It makes you wonder if the six million pounds invested in this now collapsed foreign bank, could account for half of the twelve million pound black hole, that no-one could account for, in our councils budget?
Also, the truth about the supression of a final audit report being made public, the collapse of this bank and the loss of this massive amount of money as a result of this council investing in it, the truth being exposed about officers of this council exceeding their spending limits under delegated authority by thousands of pounds, the council being demoted to a two star authority etc, etc really, is it just a coincidence that the finance officer Ray Richardson, a man who would have been involved in all of it, retired from the council just before all of this shit hit the fan?

Just a thought.

Lo and behold, Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council is one of the local authorities investing OUR money in the collapsed Icelanic bank. We had SIX MILLION POUNDS tied up in a foreign bank, that looks as if it will not be able to be recovered by this council.

Six million pounds lost. Six million pounds that could have been spent on a new swimming pool in our town. What makes me grimace most, is that all the time the people who were running our council were investing more and more money in a foreign bank, they were telling us on the other hand that we had no money and the only way that we could have a swimming pool was to have houses built in Coatham?

Not only that as you will see they, among others, ignored warnings about this bank.

A twelve million pound hole in our councils budget, no leisure facilities in our town and this council is behaving recklessly with millions of pounds of OUR money by investing it in now collapsed foreign banks. Supressed audit reports which show we have never been a four star authority, the district auditor now officially, after our intervention, confirming this by demoting the council to a two star authority ( A covering their arses exercise on behalf of the auitors office if ther ever was one) massive conflicts of interests between this council and Persimmon, officers extending Persimmons planning permission for Coatham under delegated authority without even taking it before the planning committee, paying for Persimmons legal and consultancy fees, changing the EA's planning conditions without consent or consultation, the MP and officers stifling free speech and attempting to whitewash the whole lot, the leader of the council allowing the architects of this mess to quietly slip out the back door without a question asked with two years enhanced pay and a massive pension and a glowing apppraisal in the paper when he had called for one of these peoples' investigation twice?

For Gods sake, will someone in authority order an immediate independent investigation into this most rotten of boroughs straight away, before another officer who has been involved in all of this, is allowed to leave.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3166782/Banking-crisis-Councils-ignored-warnings-over-Icelandic-banks.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7660741.stm

Less than three weeks ago, I made a posting on this site informing people about how the most posted on topic on Redcar.Net, the Coatham Enclosure topic along with the Rotten Boroughs topic, both of which contained information that the council would prefer people not to read, were removed from Redcar.Net altogether and people who were major contributors to those two topics had been barred from using the site, for no apparent reason at all. I also made the statement that now these two topics had been removed and people who contribute to them had been barred, that I thought that Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council would lift the ban that it imposed on people logging onto Redcar.Net from computers in public libraries.

Well...what I felt would happen has, I have been told, happened. Access to Redcar.Net from public libraries has now been restored. It didn't require a genius to work that one out though did it?

After being found to have lied under the Freedom of Information act regarding this issue of barring access to Redcar.Net and after trying to wriggle and squirm their way out of telling the person who submitted the FOI request in the first place, who actually authorised the barring of the site from public libraries, it would appear that the council have applied pressure to those in control of Redcar.Net to remove the things that they really did find offensive like facts and the truth about their shameful behaviour and the people who were posting those truths and facts.

I say 'those' in control, because the running of the site has now been passed down to seven or eight moderators who monitor the site 24/7. Recently, these moderators, along with the Administrator who said he was going to close the site down totally but didn't, have been barring any dissenting voices or people who dare to even make reference to the actions of this council. In one case, a link was made to an old Vera Moody letter on an old topic on Redcar.Net, the person who posted the link was barred, a woman who asked why she could not access the link was barred because she did not apologise for asking why she could not access the link and then everyone was informed that the topic that the link had been made to, WAS A RESTRICTED TOPIC and could only be viewed by the moderators?

Forgive me for laughing out loud, but is there really any need for such paranoia surrounding a topic that contained a newsletter from a councillor, that was distributed to the whole of the town? More than this, is this not censorship? Allowing only certain individuals to view things that the majority cannot?

After the removal of topics that the council didnt want people to see, the barring of people who made postings on those topics, the reinstatement of Redcar.Net from libraries once these things had happened and now the removal of any dissenting voice and having certain topics being restricted to the privelleged few, it is looks ever more likely that this council in one way or another, have had a hand in all of this and once again stifled free speech. In this particular case they have sanitised a site that contained information that they would prefer was not in the public domain posted by people that they have tried to threaten in the past in order to get them banned from using the site altogether.

If what is looking ever more possible, is actually the case, then I have only one thing to say to Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council.

Your attempts to stifle free speech, democracy and the truth about your shameful behaviour, will not win the day.